Experience has made me rich.

Men pay for dates.

I pay to get my eyebrows waxed twice a month.  I pay for manicures and pedicures and facials.  I pay for hair color and cuts.  I pay for makeup.  I pay to shave more of my body.  I pay for tampons.

Men pay for dates.

I pay for open-toed shoes, closed-toed shoes, boots, sneakers and sandals, in varying shades.  I pay for more than one belt, and multiple pairs of jeans, pants, and dresses, skirts and shirts of varying types and uses.  I pay for one outfit for yoga, one outfit for the beach and one totally different outfit for hiking.  I pay for various outfits for various events, because it would be noticible and notable if I didn't.  I pay for purses.  I pay for bras.

Men pay for dates.

I pay for pepper spray.  I pay for diet advice.  I pay for self-help books.  I pay for greeting cards.  I pay for jewelry.  I pay for products that are sold to me at parties.  I pay for gifts to bring to baby showers and bridal showers and bachelorette parties.  I pay for annual visits to the gyno, and I pay for birth control.

MEN PAY FOR DATES.

"Dating is so expensive!" the little boys cry.  As their bank accounts grow, and our bank accounts founder.  As we struggle to juggle the costs - and yes, the desires - of womanhood and the costs to compete (nay, survive?) in our feminine market.  As men judge us for not being pretty enough, girly enough, thin enough AND not being further along financially, perhaps more conservative in our saving habits.

"Men pay for dates?" the little boys ask.  "What about equal rights?" the little boys posture.

You're looking at them.

Men Pay For Dates.

There is extensive discussion of this post in the comments, and a follow-up by me here.

tag: dating

Comments

[Neil]

What about us having to pay for our subscriptions to Maxim and Stuff?

[Liz]

LOL

Neil, you rock! :)

[JDub]

I still disagree with the argument. You could cross off many of those things, as they really aren't requirements of men, but things that make you feel better. Not all, but several. I'd argue that it's the confidence you get from doing these things, not the requirement of men to date you, that you feel the need to get your eyebrows waxed rather than having tweezers and nail clippers to do these things yourself at home. And, just for the record, I think we women expect a man to clip his nails and trim unsightly hairs growing from orifices. I will agree that it is inherently more expensive to be a woman than a man. With this mentality, you're perpetuating the idea that women need to put all this time and effort (*note: I'm not saying none is good either) into how they look so that men will want them. However, if you're expecting a man to notice you do all these things, I'm also thinking you're probably anticipating a man of whom you can expect the same level of attentiveness to his own appearance which, thereby, means he's spending money on snappy clothes, decent cologne, hair products, regular grooming and his own gym membership. And, if that's not the kind of guy you're looking for or expecting, why are you putting so much effort into yourself for a lazy guy who does nothing to make himself attractive to you, yet expects you to? There's probably a self-help book for that.

It is really, really nice when a guy pays. But I only think that now because I'm broke. I'd much rather feel like I was pulling my own weight in more ways than just back and forth on an elliptical machine.

But whateva'. Just my humble opinion

[Liz]

Hey JDub,

Thanks for commenting.

First, you are assuming that I do certain things to acquire confidence, or to attract a man. Not true. That is, in fact, a rather negative and detrimental way to look at it. I don't pluck my (Italian) eyebrows, etc. because I don't have the skills or the ability to step outside myself to do it properly. And I consider these important services to look polished, which is important in all aspects of my life, particularly and firstly, professionally. The standard of appearance is much higher for a woman than it is for a man.

Further, a man can still buy significantly LESS clothes, and I didn't mention scent or gym memberships. Scent is optional for both men and women, and gym memberships (and hair products) are bought by both.

In fact, this post has nothing to do with women doing things so that a man will want them. It is a comparison between the financial pressures on a woman vs. the financial pressures on a man. It postulates that in the grand scheme of the world, it is the gallantry of men that balances out the pressures on a woman. I mourn the seeming loss of this quality in men that I find so easily in myself.

It is precisely because I have no qualms picking up a check, and in fact enjoy it, that I feel strongly about this. I only ask for men to show the same generousity that I would, and yet I have found that many men, while being extremely judgemental about women in general, are extremely tight about money, and act like it is a huge deal and a huge financial pressure to pick up the check for a date.

When comparatively speaking, as I have outlined above, it is not.

[AJ]

Hey! You are ENGAGED.

Once you're engaged, it's no longer a "date", right? Then you can split things 50-50, right?

RIGHT?

Come on, I need a little motivation to pop the question.

Ok, I need a *lot* of motivation.

[Dan]

Very interesting post and it certainly provides useful insight into what a woman goes through. I suppose if you didn't go through all that trouble of waxing, shaving, plucking, and dressing in so many different outfits you could probably scratch the pepper spray off the list too. But then again, you know us men, we'd just try and attack you anyways because that's what men do.

Seriously though, do you not think that men have pressures and responsibilities which inherently carry costs as well? They may not include waxing or makeup but we still have pressures. What about the pressure to succeed and thereby provide for our wife/girlfriend? This pressure is amplified by knowing women expect us to pay for dates. Men have feelings too.

Then again, I'm Canadian. We almost always pay for dates and aren't afraid to show our feelings. LA must be a tough place...

[Liz]

AJ,

LOL

I WAS engaged, but now I'm not. That was many moons ago!

However, once you are in a relationship, I do believe couples make their finances work for them as a team. It's definitely a different situation. :)

[karen]

I am the sort of woman that looks for qualities of a man, not what they can provide me, or potentially provide me (in response to someone suggesting that men have pressures to succeed and provide for girlfriend/wife). I also am the sort of woman that does not need to shave, pluck, run on a treadmill, wear fancy clothing/shoes/bags/jewelry. I am a simple woman, and would expect that any man that is willing to take me out is willing to accept me just the way I am, hair a mess and natural colored, eyebrows unplucked, hairy legs and armpits and generic clothing/shoes and all.

That said, I think it's nice and gentlemanly to pay for dates. But, what do I know, I've been married almost 7 years.... :)

[el_gallo]

I pay to shave more of my body.

I'll trade ya' -- your legs for my back and ears.

[Liz]

El Gallo,

Someone named "Harry Manback" woo'd me on OKCupid - Was that you???

:)

Thanks, everyone, for your (most welcome) perspectives!

[Jacqueline]

It's all basic evolutionary psychology, it's all about having grandchildren. Men are instinctively attracted to women who are healthy, fertile, and sexually receptive (women they can impregnate), and women are attracted to men with money, power, status (men who can provide resources for their offspring). Whether you want to have children or not, whether you're using birth control or not, we're all still driven by the instinct to find a mate with whom we can have healthy children that will survive to adulthood and reproduce themselves.

So women spend their money on enhancing their signals that they are healthy, fertile, and sexually receptive. Diet, exercise, skin care, fashion, makeup, hair care, etc. are all really about appearing like a good candidate for impregnation. Men spend their money signalling that they have the resources to support offspring. Paying for dates, driving a nice car, buying a home, saving money are all really about demonstrating that if you let him impregnate you he can feed your babies.

If people want to try to be politically correct, "liberated", egalitarian, whatever, then fine, that is their choice. But they are fighting millions of years of human evolution and instincts and thus will find themselves with a much more difficult path to find a mate.

[Gary]

I am going to have to disagree with your post. The reason is because you chose to pamper yourself and buy all of those clothes. I do not want a woman that has to have all the best clothes or have her toenails painted when she goes out. I like a girl that is not afraid to wear sweats, and flip flops if she wants. Men do pay for dates, but that is just because it is the right thing to do. We also buy our clothes, go to the doctor for physicals, and spend money on alot of our personal things. We however do not complain about our personal things, but might complain about dating because we do normaly pay. I on average spend about 150.00 extra per week just on dinners or movies with my girlfriend, so it is expensive, but we can't say no or yall will get mad that we don't want to go out.

[visitingfromkristysblog]

i agree, guys should pay for dates unless otherwise corrected/instructed by his date. but also because of one thing you didn't mention - the sizable body of research showing that on average women are compensated less than men for similar positions in the workplace, as well as the sizable amount of evidence describing the "glass ceiling" effect in corporate hierarchies.

i tend to think that apart from the "fairness" argument, it's just a nice thing to do, chivalrous and all that. of course, now i'm in coupled-shared-household-hood so it's a team thing, but even so, i pay proportionally more because of the reasons stated above. but i was dating, i was more than happy to pay it all.

- cuznate

[Dan]

I should make it clear that I wasn't saying women make us feel pressure to provide. It just comes naturally to us. Those of us that want to settle down anyway. I've been married almost 12 years now but I'm sure I paid for many dates.

[terry]

You know, when I was younger and more idealistic, I thought this notion was crap. But now that I'm older and jaded (heh), I tend to agree -- at least on dates early in the relationship.
Our dry cleaning and haircuts even cost more -- forget all the extras that are expected of us. And yes, they ARE expected, whether men realize it or not.
And during my last round of online dating, some of my friends even judged the success of the date by whether the guy paid! Interesting.

[Liz]

Jacqueline - So what happens when men stop doing things like paying for dates and being chivalrous, while at the same time, women realize that they can have almost everything (some would argue everything) they want without a man? Are we ready for that evolution?

Gary - I actually do not buy an excessive amount of clothing, and I buy most of my clothing at Target. Further, when I can afford a mani/pedi, which I do try to do once a month, I go to a supercheapy place ($20 for both). To my mind, pampering is a whole 'nother level, and that sort of spending is not what I am referring to in my post.

[Liz]

Hi Terry,

Yes, when I was younger, I felt closer to JDub's take on it. But experience has changed my view.

Here's one experience. The man I almost married was often financially conservative. I really like to go out to dinner, and I would always pay, because he would say, "Well, I don't want to spend the money." But if I paid, he would go and enjoy. And that was my choice; I take full responsibility for my choices back then. BUT, then he wanted a bigger screen TV. Sure, I would have LOVED a bigger screen TV, but I knew I couldn't afford it, and I didn't want to go halvsies - it wasn't a wise expenditure for me. I said, this is just like going out to dinner, I don't want to spend the money on a big screen TV right now." He whined and nagged and manipulated - for a really long time. Finally, he went out and bought his TV.

Made at least one thing easier when we broke up!

[s.l.]

i've been with my boyfriend for a year. i end up picking up more checks than him probably. because i make more money. and so don't mind doing it.

men paying for dates makes me uncomfortable. I don't like to feel bought or obligated in any manner.

that being said, touche on your post my friend. this puts things in a whole new perspective. though i'm not sure my man would care that i can match at least 3 pairs of shoes to any outfit in my closet.

[serrephim]

The problem I have with this whole discussion of imperatives, is that it takes very little to throw a curve ball into the argument that knocks both sides down.

Consider that lesbian women, not all, but many, also do all the things you've mentioned ... so then who pays for dates?

Also, a lot of gay men fit your description of what you do to make yourself presentable as a woman ... then who pays for dates?

Something else that strikes me: this is all about commodification of women and their femininity, and that does nothing to help us stand next to men on a level playing field. To me, expecting men to pay for dates because women spend X amount on making ourselves attractive, is basically saying they're paying for arm-candy. How is that different from prostitution?

[Janis]

Being an woman coming from a time that women were fighting for rights, I cringe at your post. What about just splitting the check. No reason that a man has to pay for what I decide to do to my body, hair and what clothes I wear. It is a woman's choice as to what to spend that money on.

[kristy]

love this post, love this question, love this discussion.

i think it's interesting that you left out the fact that women are still paid $0.75 for every $1.00 a man is.

but that aside, and since i have been on like a hundred million dates in the last year, i have some very strong feelings about this that are never, ever reflected in my actual behavior.

how i feel, generally: i think that you are right. comparative expenses are culturally skewed and women absolutely pay a higher price for everyday living.

in addition, i have some deep, DEEP-seated views about men picking up the tab. for one, it's been my experience that a guy who is interested in me will pay for the date. that's just how it's worked. but for another, i honestly just expect/want to be with a guy who is financially capable of paying for our dates. if it turns into a relationship, i would not expect him to foot the bill 100% of the time, but certainly a majority of the time. i have a (latent, selfish, anti-feminist) desire to be taken care of.

how i behave in real life: i would like to be taken care of, sure, but i do a pretty good job of taking care of myself. so i tend to base my financial expectations on our respective salaries. if i am making, say, half of what the guy i'm dating is (this has been the case, sadly), i expect him to pay for twice as much. if i am making more than the guy, i will pick up the tab more.
also, i am generous and i like to spend money. so if i suggest "hey, let's go to this awesome place i know for brunch!" i expect to pay for it.

so yeah. i would like and want the guy to pay for more than i do most of the time, for many reasons. but in the end, i ignore the culturally skewed financial pressures and the fact that i probably make less than my male counterparts and pay for what at the time feels like "my fair share."

[Liz]

s.l., yes, different income levels do effect this equation, true. Plus, anyone of lower income does have to find creative and more inexpensive ways to date than dinner and a movie. Often, initiative on the part of the man counts for a lot if he doesn't have a lot of dough.

serrephim, I am not homosexual, so I have no idea how those relationships work. Generally, I do believe, if you ask, you pay. If I ask a man out, I pay and expect to pay. (Unless he dashingly refused to allow me to pay!) :)

Now here's the tricky part. I am NOT saying that women do these things to make themselves attractive to men and therefore men must pay. That is offensive, as you say.

Plenty of the things I've mentioned don't have anything to do with attractiveness, and plenty of the things that do contribute to attractiveness are also imperative for acceptable feminine grooming in the situations of most women. I am positing that women encounter more costs in the world than men, and that when men pay for a date, this balances out a bit. Not that one is to pay for the other.

A level playing field doesn't mean the players aren't inherently different and incur different costs.

Karen - just wanted to shout out that I respect your lifestyle! :)

[slopmaster]

You pay to put on all those things, we pay to get them off!

slopmaster

[serrephim]

Slop:

It's statements like those that make me never want to "let" a man pay for my dinner again ...

;)

I think you're joking, though.

[Liz]

Janis,

I respect your opinion. It was my opinion for a very long time. And it screwed me for a very long time.

Yes, I can choose to be like Karen. A very respectable, wonderful, healthy way to be, no doubt. But I am not like Karen, and in today's society, in my world, these costs are very real for me, and frankly, my male roommate has none of them. I do not feel like I can choose NOT to do these things, except to the extent that I try to save money when I can. The simple fact is, that I have many more REAL expenses than the men I date, and yet, often they agree with you, that the man paying for a date, taking on that cost, is unfair. Splitting it would be more fair. Because I CHOOSE to spend money on most of these things. (I assume tampons are a hard line on my side.)

I do choose what I spend my money on, but my choices are a result of the society I live in, and that society costs more for a woman. Yes, it does.

I am only suggesting that paying for dates and treating a woman right is the balance to the equation, and taking that away in the name of "fair" isn't doing us any favors or further our best interests.

Perhaps my truth is counterintuitive here.